Hoo boy, thoughts on yaoi (let me tell you them).

[dagas_isa]

Thinky-thoughts of the navel gazing kind based on this post by rawles.

This is not meant to be a post of self-congratulations. Nor is it somehow saying that I'm a good-feminist/better-feminist because I'm more drawn narratively to women and their relationships, both with other women and with people of other genders.

This is just some musing about preferences and I guess, my thoughts on yaoi, if my list of fanfiction don't already make it fairly clear where yaoi/boy-slash stands in the rough hierarchy of "stuff I want to read/write."

Generally speaking, "Your preferences are inherently wrong and damaging" and "My preferences are inherently right and empowering" are both problematic statements regardless of who is saying it and what they're saying it about. I'm not going to say that expressing and displaying one's own preferences isn't empowering, especially in a community space where those preferences are welcomed, but to say that the preferences themselves, independent of context, are better than another set (that you just so happen to not respond to) is problematic.

Also, ignoring the existence of yet other preferences that show how the supposed dichotomy between two sets of preferences (For example, the invisibility of femslash when talking about [boy]slash, het, and the treatment of female and/or queer characters) is actually a false one is not cool either.

Here's how I explain the lack of m/m slash in my works, and my general apathy towards reading it: I like reading and writing about about women and women in relationships (both with each other and people of other genders). Not better. Not worse. Just there. It works for me. The end.

My stories might be feminist, sometimes. They sometimes might not be. It can be as queer as all out or painfully heteronormative. They might take joy in women's agency and sexuality, and sometimes they might be a perpetuation of an internalized male gaze. I also have plenty of stories featuring men alone and/or male PoVs. They're not all about women.

And sometimes, I wonder if I need to apologize for any or all of these things. For the lack of boyslash. For the bouts of sexism or heteronormativism. For the times when the character I want to explore is a man. For the fact that the fandoms I write for are pretty obscure.

But then, I shrug.

So as much as I might like to read that post as a validation of who I am and my preferences for het and femslash, it's really not. The actual social value (or lack there of) of any fannish activity lie in the execution not the intent or preferences. And more so, while fic can totally be subversive and progressive, and deal with Serious Issues, it doesn't have to be and it doesn't need to pretend that it does.

There's also such a wide range of preferences and ideas of what empowerment is that to pretend that the specific experiences and dynamics that one person finds empowering is going to be what everyone finds empowering is imho, ridiculous. And that tying specific hind-brain preferences to empowerment at the expense of other hind-brain preferences is just a little skeezy.

Like I can understand boyslash as feminist from the perspectives of women enjoying an aspect of their sexuality that's normally invisible, or creating something that's largely by and for a female audience, and even from the perspective of reclaiming male experiences and male space. However, the first part isn't relevant to the expression of my sexuality, the second part is also largely true of het and femslash communities, and as for the third, I think it has more to do with how people negotiate power dynamics and how they choose to own them, than any particular act. I don't want male spaces and experiences, I want non-male spaces and experiences to be treated as valuable and worth writing about.

So, while m/m slash can be empowering and feminist for some people, I can't say with any honesty that it is for me. And I think (hope) a large amount of the joy found in having a community of people is that people are bonding over a common interest, not that someone feigns an interest in hopes of being accepted by that community.

P.S. I'm not going to say that I never read/write/enjoy/ship m/m slash and will never do so, just that it's generally not what I seek out, or what's relevant to my fannish tastes. I do occasionally read it, sometimes enjoy it, sometimes ship m/m pairings, but don't necessarily think I'll get around to writing them.

Comments

[senmut]

All I can say is well-said, because I am still scratching my head at the various camps of 'this is right' among fandom when it comes to these issues.

[dagas_isa]

Thank you. It's still so jumbled in my head, but hopefully it makes a bit of sense?

[erin_c_1978]

Here from metafandom's delicious account, and while I agree with some of rawles' points, I relate to your post so much more, except that I'm not yet at the point of being able to shrug. A majority of the few fics I've written, and those that I'm writing or have in mind for the future, are female-focused het or gen, but I'm honestly not sure whether they pass muster as feminist or not. Does one of my potential fics being m/m take points away? (I am pretty sure that having no f/f on my writing roster despite being bi indicates internalized heterosexism or some sort of hangup on my part, though I make absolutely no judgments against anyone else in the same situation.) That said, I have so much trouble writing actual words and getting them into a postable state that at this juncture I think what I need to do is write, and keep reading and thinking about things, and try my very best to make sure my stuff isn't offensive before I post, but mostly just write and hope these things sort themselves out in time instead of actively policing my own preferences in advance.

On some level it's funny that I'm so tied up in knots over all this. One of the tiny fandoms I write in is extremely freewheeling, and in the other there may be no one left to care about my novel-length WIP even if I manage to finish and post it (it's movieverse, while most everyone else seems to have migrated to bookverse or started there in the first place).

I think if I find anything empowering, it's believing that the stories in my head matter enough -- even if only to myself -- to devote time and energy to writing them down. There's a part of me that is afraid even saying that much is contemptible, but at the same time, I've come to a point where I have to put words to my stories or slide back into depression again.

Anyway, thanks so much for this post.

[dagas_isa]

Thank you for your comment. ^^

I think the thing is, there's no such thing as "points" one way or another. I hope not anyway. There's kind of these individual sets of preferences that we all have (that aren't wrong and that we should own), and then the ways we talk about them and use them (that's where I think the idea of being careful comes in). Also, I'm kind of skeptical at this point what a "good" feminist is, and if I want to be one. Or if I just want to do what I do and create good effects without worrying if the label fits me.

Also, weirdly enough, I'm pretty much straight from what I can figure, but I get more emotionally attached to female characters. So I don't think our fic preferences are necessarily tied to sexuality.

I think if I find anything empowering, it's believing that the stories in my head matter enough -- even if only to myself -- to devote time and energy to writing them down.

Yeah, pretty much, this. Storytelling is where it's at, IMHO, where empowerment comes from, not the content itself.

[lassarina]

For myself, I find that it's just harder for me to write same-gender (or, heck, even opposite-gender) stories when there's not at least something in the canon for me to go on, which is why I tend to veer away from writing most slash. I can't find the evidence in the text to support the initial movement toward it. (Obviously I'm not glued to canon for everything, but as a writer I personally have to be able to point at where I started to extrapolate, and if that ain't there, it isn't happening.)

Oddly, I do not have the same problem reading--but I have to tell myself before starting to read such a thing that my personally necessary basis for extrapolation won't be there.

Which isn't actually addressing the meat of your post, and I didn't mean to derail, so. The actual social value (or lack there of) of any fannish activity lie in the execution not the intent or preferences. And more so, while fic can totally be subversive and progressive, and deal with Serious Issues, it doesn't have to be and it doesn't need to pretend that it does. This? This is probably one of the most astute and awesome statements on the matter that I have seen. Thank you.

[dagas_isa]

Thank you for commenting. ^^

I don't think I need textual evidence (though it helps), but I do need to see how I can get a ship from point A (where they are in canon) to point B (where they're in some kind of relationship). Maybe what might be considered a point of mutual sympathy.

[owlmoose]

The actual social value (or lack there of) of any fannish activity lie in the execution not the intent or preferences.

Yes. Very much this.

Although I find these debates about slash and the role of women characters in fandom interesting, and I think they are important discussions to have, I worry sometimes that they can devolve into people beating themselves up for their personal preferences: what they love to read or write, what turns them on, etc. One of the best aspects of fandom, in my mind, is that it's a space for many women to own their sexuality, in whatever form it might take. To then have to turn around and apologize for liking the "wrong" thing seems to miss the point.

[dagas_isa]

One of the best aspects of fandom, in my mind, is that it's a space for many women to own their sexuality, in whatever form it might take.

Definitely this. ^^

[sqbr]

I keep wanting to say something deep in response to this, but I think I'm going to have to stick to: yes! This! :)

[dagas_isa]

Thank you. ^^

[rubyfruit]

This is kind of me, too. As much as I like m/m, and there are fabulous fanworks about m/m couples in some of the fandoms I travel in (and in the case of at least one, there aren't enough women for f/f and m/f), but I do, by and large, prefer to read and write f/f and m/f.

Generally speaking, "Your preferences are inherently wrong and damaging" and "My preferences are inherently right and empowering" are both problematic statements regardless of who is saying it and what they're saying it about.

This. This, so much. It doesn't help that people with certain preferences are encouraged to beat themselves up and apologize constantly should those preferences not be "empowering" enough for some circles.

here by ay of the network

[devilc]

I'm deliciousing this post for posterity so that I can have its awesomeness to hand when confronted by stupidity.

And, also, the immortal words of my buddy devohoneybee on these debates on what we, as writers should be writing:

"My pussy is not ideologically driven, thank you very much."